Meeting for Bars

Soundsa bit disappointing unfortunately Tommy,Only 13 Bars attended,a meeting that surely was important to all Owners future.
It just gives me a feeling that the majority of owners couldnt care less,what is done to them.They had a chance to make a difference,but the majority either couldnt care,or didnt believe anything would change,The other alternative is that they were not informed of the meeting,and whose fault that may be i dont know.
But good on you to the owners who did turn up,at least you showed you cared,and to Tommy who has tried to act as mediator.

I actually spoke to someone who went to this meeting this morning and unless he is lying apparently there was a lot things that bar owners didn't like or agreed on, I think even the word Bo""ox was used in the meeting. Unless this person is out right lying.

There was only one bar that did not really like what the rules were saying, and I did not hear anyone say ' B****ks.
As I said, most of the people there were positive. The whole point of this is that at the moment, nobody is legally allowed to have entertainment, but now they have the opportunity to do it without all the hassle that was prevalent over the last few years, as long as they comply with the rules. The main problem the bars have to overcome, is to stop reporting each other, as has been happening. Everyone has to work together on this to make it work. As we said yesterday, the rules have been put in place, by the Town Hall, as a guide, and if any of the rules aren't working, it can be discussed at future meetings. Let's give it a chance.
Finally, I was told of a little rumour, that I was doing all this for financial gain. How wrong you are. This campaign has actually cost me a lot of time and lost earnings, as I do work for a living.(And yes, I do pay tax and social security) Believe it or not, I actually care about where I live and if I can improve that in any way, I will.

Sorry Alan, I meant to reply to you also. Because the rules are meant to start on 1 June, I called the meeting, after liaising with the Town Hall, rather quickly. I asked Big FM to put it out, I put it on the forum, I asked a lot of people by word of mouth to tell everyone. I also asked all of the Presidents in our Association, to go to their local bars and spread the word. Other than visit every bar personally, I don't know what else I could do. There was not time to put it in the local press, although I may contact them now with a follow up as to what happened.

Hi Tommy, my husband and I will be opening a bar in La Marina Urb in the next 4-6 weeks and would be very interested in obtaining notes from this meeting or any other info in order to comply and co-operate.

Hi Hattention. I would be more than happy to help you. You can call me on 627769102, or, send me an email to: [email protected].

Hi Tommy,I was not having a pop at you when I stated that perhaps the Bar Owners hadnt been told,But i remember reading on this forum,after the Council got the O.K. to run the Bar Licenses,it would be them that would be visiting all the Bars "In the next few days" ,it is them that have use of a Town Hall web-site,it is them that have a Local Blog,Using all these methods and the message would of got through to every bar owner,They get paid for these things,you dont,If they want meetings to be attenred it is their responsibilily to put the arrangements in place.

Many thanks for your prompt response. Will email you. Thanks.

''The main problem the bars have to overcome, is to stop reporting each other, as has been happening'' ????????????

well done for all your hard work Tommy.

I agree Alan, we were having a meal in a restaurant on the strip and we mentioned music and the meeting and they didn't know that it was happening, i remembered it was thursday but not the time so when we got home i looked on here and found the details then rang the restaurant to tell them, every bar/restaurant in La Marina should have been informed, it should not have been left to Tommy to sort out there are plenty of people on the council that could have called in to them, Tommy has done enough without him this would not have got this far.

Tommy, there is no requirement to discuss the rules regarding entertainment, they are perfectly clear and can be found under the relevant sections of both Spanish and European noise laws. Unfortunately, The 'Government' in San Fulgencio have historically chosen not enforce these laws (on the contrary, they instead issued a number of 4am licences, IN A RESIDENTIAL AREA),
which is why you are now having to dedicate so much time trying to negotiate a workround - there isn't one. So, despite Valencia firing the warning shots, they appear to have allowed SF to issue some half-cocked 'licences', with no mention of revoking the 4am licences already granted, and these are the bars who will continue to dominate the landscape and make your efforts on behalf on responsible bar owners futile. You also make no mention of the plaintiffs in this long running discussion; in fact this blog has a history of simply accusing them of killjoys and moaners so i don't understand why bar owners are surprised when the authorities are brought in. Your efforts to find a resolution to this are admirable, and you should be thanked for that, but I sense trouble on the horizon. National and European law regarding noise in a residential area needs no clarification - Ask all those people throughout The costa's that have recently been awarded significant compensation by local authorities whose bar owners refused to operate within the law - coming to a town near you? Bar owners on the Urb need to ask themselves this question; would you get away with operating, as some of them have, within a residential area in the UK? - of course you wouldn't and Spain should be no different. If your business model doesn't support operating with consideration to your environment then don't be surprised when you meet resistance. SF has conveniently kept local youths contained within this Brit enclave (know any other bars within 100 miles that open until 4am on a residential area?) which has added to anti social behaviour. Which right-minded and reasonable official would allow this to continue, and which self-interested people would support it? Just one more thing Tommy, how close do you live to a late night bar? Regards.

I will try to answer your queries.I am aware of the law regarding entertainment, which was the reason why we tried to simplify the whole entertainment issue.There are only a few bars on La Marina who have a 4.00am licence, and as far as I know, they have met the criteria to obtain such a licence, which, does not mean they can have entertainment until 4.00am. Valencia are aware that we are a residential area, and we all know La Marina is a residential area, but we still get tourists coming here, which are a main source of income for the bars in the summer months. The population actually doubles in La Marina during the summer months. Although we are a residential urbanisation, we still have Tourist Offices !!!
I resent the fact that you consider our achievement as a ' half cocked licence'. It is not a licence because we cannot change the law. It is a compromise.
The noise that you mentioned is not down to the entertainment, it is when people are going home and they congregate outside the bars talking, shouting etc. If everyone complies with the new guidelines, this will not happen.
I am aware of the compensation culture of some people, which I think is very sad. The new guidelines are aimed at trying to keep everyone happy, including the complainers.
Where I live is irrevalent, and I know what you are trying to imply. I have simply tried to find a middle ground for everyone, which would benefit the urbanisation.
I find it very interesting when people make comments and give advice, but don't want to do anything themselves.

You find it interesting why? - because somebody has posted to this forum that is not in agreement with you? It's not personal, It's an opposing view, and your reaction speaks volumes about your professed impartiality. And actually, where you live is relevant, because you would not dismiss those that had had the quality of their life ruined by loud bars/drinkers over a period of years as merely seeking ill-deserved compensation if it were you.

I am all for constructive criticism and from your comments, you are one of the people opposed to the bars. While I sympathise with your plight, I wonder if you have done anything to rectify the situation, apart from writing to Valencia. Once again, I will reiterate what I said before. The new guidelines are there for everyone, including you. If you take the trouble to read the guidelines, you will see.
I am not going tit for tat with you, as I am always aware of people who use aliases. Why don't you attend a future meeting and air your views. I am sure we could all learn from sensible communication.

Just a quick comment on flagkilo,you insinuate that you have suffered for years with this noise.Yet again,whenever the bar argu.ment crops up,new names appear condemning the bar owners,as usual the same pattern seems to be appearing,I have never noticed your name in previous years,regarding this subject.As usual new names crop up against the bars,will you be another one who winds up the majority and then vanish into oblivion.Before you ask I do not live within spitting distance of bars,I made that choice.

Well done to Tommy etc for there efforts, its a pity more bar owners did not attend the meeting maybe that didn't know about it or are just not bothered, as for the opposer's of the said licence etc GET a life and move on you had your chance to do something before the bars were built if you bought one of the older properties, if one of the newer ones then you should have done your homework as what was being built around you. Now be happy with the compromise and let the urb flourish again like it once was then we all gain by more income into the area so more tax is paid more jobs etc and better facility's roads and maybe a more stable area and property prices etc

Hi Tommy !! Thank you first of all for the good work you have done for us here in La Marina.Sadly I am one of these bar owners who never heard of this meeting but I have seen the new rules and I have a copy in my bar. A customer gave it to my,I do not think she is a President .Thank you anyway.

Quite a few people have asked about the basis of the new guidelines. This is a copy for everyone to read.

RULES TO COMBINE ENTERTAINMENT, LIVE MUSIC AND FUN
WITH RESPECT FOR THE NEIGHBOURS

MAY 2013

With the aim of combining entertainment and harmony for the persons who live in our Municipality San Fulgencio, and with the purpose of contributing to the welfare of our community hereby we issue the rules as follows.

1. The period affecting these rules is referred to as the months June and September and July and August.

a. During June and September you could have live music three days in a week, from 20.00 24.00hrs. After this time ambient music will be acceptable until closing time of business. The music should not be heard in the exterior of the premises, as well as any type of noise caused by loud voices, that may disturb the peace of the neighbours.

b. During the months of July and August, live music could be performed every day, from 20.00 until 24.00 hours. After midnight, ambient music could be played

c. The owners / tenants of the bars should collaborate and make sure that the noise after midnight, does not harm the peace of the neighbours and ensure their safety and peace with the aim of combining entertainment and harmony.

d. The sale of alcoholic beverages to persons under the age of 18 years is strictly forbidden.

e. You should have a special interest in the exterior terraces, with the purpose to avoid noise, loud voices and scandal from the clients. This is the sole responsibility of the owner / tenant of the premises.

f. The local police will ensure the safety and tranquillity of the neighbours. Therefore, the persons in charge of the premises, should close the windows and doors as well as maintaining a reasonable music volume, in order to avoid disharmony with the neighbours.

g. In the case we receive many complaints of the same premises, due to the very loud music, loud voices or scandal of the clients, the police will proceed denouncing the owner or tenant of the bar, depending on their licence and category.

h. The schedule for the rest of the months will be disclosed at the end of September

Appreciating your collaboration for the welfare of our community, business and the peace of our neighbours.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some bars have entertainment in the afternoon, and although this is not mentioned, it will be OK for the bars to do this, as long as they comply with the noise levels.
As I said at the meeting, let's give this a go, and we must all work together to make this a success.

Thanks Tommy it is there for all to see and hopefully both the bar owners and the residents & visitors who want to enjoy a night out can without being harassed by police or the kill joys on the Urb who complain, I would have liked to have seen something committing the police to deal with the people who make malicious complaints.
Lets keep the news positive and happy, remember its a great place to live.

A relevant piece of information given the issues of the last few years for certain areas of the urbanisation.
Was this a mediated process between owners, local government and neighbours of the commercial areas?
A great piece of work undertaken by the local group of presidents but I am drawn to the sections which seem to favour the neighbours and not the businesses which mention the use of denouncing .
Will the neighbours who make the complaints be made known to the business owners /tennants to enable a process such as mediation to be used or will the complainant be allowed to remain anonymous .
Also what level of monitoring will be utilised to ensure compliance with noise pollution levels to enable both parties to have a reasonable defence?

Well this a move forward,although still not perfect.i only hope that the bars are ALL told what the rules are and they dont havec to rely on `Bar room gossip.The one really good point I see are that,one complaint will not be enough for the Police to take action,but as stated in the rules MANY complaints against the one bar.In the past it has invariably been ONE complaint.also music doesnt have to stop at mid-night,ambient music can be played in the bars(a bit of ambient music sounds good to me)These rules still have loop holes,but it is a better deal for most people,than the current ones.
So once again thanks to Tommy,the Presidents involved,the Councillors and the Mayor,for at least trying to get La Marina Urb back to the lively place it was,and out of the doldrums it could of turned into.
p.s.Could someone explain what the word scandal really means

The document was translated from Spanish, so there will be a few odd words. I think the 'scandal' means trouble.
On the complaints, they have changed the process as to dealing with them. If a complaint comes in, the police will ask the complainant to identify themselves, and ask for their address. The police will then visit the address and ascertain if there is a problem. Only then will they visit the offending premises. I did suggest that if the police find there is no problem, and that the call was malicious, I would like to see the complainant charged with wasting police time. Time will tell.
There are many loopholes in the guidelines, and I have no doubt that some people will find a way to get round them. The only problem with that is, it will force the guidelines to be tightened with no leeway. Everyone needs to use common sense.

Thanks Tommy,for the probable meaning of the word scandal as meaning trouble,I thought it may mean gossip in which case loads of bar owners and customers would be in trouble(light hearted).
The Spanish translation of the rules will also prove a problem in section g it states MANY complaints before the police act.In your reply it states ANY complaints,if any was meant to be the word,then nothing has changed,except the part that followed,which stated,if the police find the noise not excessive,they will ask the complainent to withdraw their complaint,and if they refuse to do so the police will tell the bar owner to either turn down the music or turn it off completely.if it is staying as it was previously,then i am afraid nothing seems to of changed,as most of the problems came from one spurious complaint,being made against a bar,I cannot see that the police ever acted on a complaint without the name and address of the complainent,purely because they must be given that info.surely to follow up the complaint.

Tommy, I think that you have done an excellent job, thank you. I have had a property in the area since 1986, I have seen many changes in the area. When people purchased their properties, they were being bought as holiday homes, sometimes on a mortgage, and they were told that to finance their mortgage they would be able to rent them to holiday makers, which I know lots do, especially due to the hard economic times that we are suffering here in the UK and Spain. (Please note, I do not!!!) Without bars, and entertainment, nobody would be able to rent their property and the Urb would be a ghost town as people would default on their mortgages and hand their keys in. I think that ending music at 12 is a good idea, I have just returned from Turkey, where bars are all competing against each other, but music has to be turned down at midnight, with soft music after. The police patrol the area. I know lots of people live in the area, I stay for about 4/6 months a year, I live near bars and can hear music throughout the night, I must say, that the bars that play after midnight are not English Bars. Part of life on the Urb is that it offers you entertainment & bars and meeting people that you would not get in the UK. So those who oppose, may I make a polite suggestion that if you do not like it, it may be time to move on and let those who have come to Spain for a enjoyable life, live.