WELL, WHAT HAPPENED AT THE MEETING?

Normally there are three or four of the bars up on Consum that post up here. So as it was Consums meeting with the powers that be this afternoon seems that they must of all been told not to tell anyone. Wonder if that chief of police apologised to Rojos

Hello Alan,
we was at the meeting yesterday, along with most of the other bars around consum square, but to be fair, I don't thinks its right to publish the outcome of our meeting before the other areas had there meeting, so a little patients is required just for now.

Hogs Head,
Good idea to keep the results of the meeting quiet,until all meetings had been held. Shame you didn't tell jeff. As I have read everything on his blog. know he has spilt the beans,
Who were the uninvited guests who turned up (I am laying odds on the moaning brigade) who once again got there own way and the bars have been shafted yet again.
Though jeff was pleased to announce the Fiesta will go ahead, he didn't mention the Rock Concert so I gather this has been cancelled (I don't think)

"The good news is that bars can have music inside, as long as there are no microphones or amplifiers" a good old fashioned sing song!!

Not quite correct Jodie Groom room, you forgot doors and windows closed, and a stack of other petty rules, including don't upset the police (although I gather they havnt been told to grant you the same courtesy) and if anybody fancies a good laugh all they have to do is phone the police and complain and it seems automatic that the bar will be fined or closed down,(havnt seen jack s*** about the complainers being fined for making unwarranted complaints) Lots more anti bar stuff, .If it doesn't get sorted fairly I will be driven to drink (perhaps I shouldn't say that)

How dose one get to find out the truth please? Where is it Jeff has posted?

Well have read this license for open warfare. Rather badly cobbled together set of ideas. It needs an English non involved person in the middle when a complaint is made, not gun totting heavy and often very rude set of gents. To say what a shambles is being polite. The Urbanisation deserves far better I am sure most will agree with that.

JEFFs BLOG

Meeting with bar owners from Consum.
The meeting was held yesterday afternoon when most of the bar owners attended, as well as a few uninvited guests.
18 months ago members of the town hall and Tommy from the President's Association reached an agreement with Valencia to have a pilot scheme regarding the bars and entertainment in San Fulgencio. A set of guide lines were put down for the bars to follow.
1.Keep the music down to an acceptable level.
2. Ensure all windows and doors are kept closed.
3. Music to finish at midnight.
4. Ensure those sitting outside maintain order and keep the noise down.
5. Music etc., no more than three times a week.
So for a while all went well. But in the last 4 months there have been 70 plus complaints about noise.
Why? Quite frankly some bars have been abusing the guide lines.
So what happens when the guide lines are abused?
The police are called to deal with the complaints. The police, they have to follow the rule of law.
The two main laws are the law regarding excessive noise and the law regarding having the correct licence.
Only two bars on the urbanisation have a licence for live music. All the others are taking a chance. "If you put your head above the parapet you will get it shot."
So if you have Karaoke on the terrace and only have a licence for carry out food and the police are called, you will receive a denuncia. Also, some of the bars, that had not progressed their opening licences are still in the same position as they were, 18 months ago, despite having been informed of their requirements.
Because of the failure of these bars, they are drawing attention to the other bars that are compliant.
This is not something that either myself or any other councillor or the mayor have any control over.This is down to the bar owners.
If the local police deal with it, the fines are lower, but if the autonomical police deal with it, the fines can be as much as €3000 for a first offence and/or closure. Some say if the bars close, then the area will die. I don't think that is the case. From experience, when a bar closes it is not that long before someone else comes along to take it over.
So what of the future?
Let's get back to being responsible. If you are aware that certain bars are not complying contact myself or Paulino. Follow the guide lines, get your paperwork in order. You need public liability insurance, you need to have fire extinguishers that are maintained and certified.
The good news is that bars can have music inside, as long as there are no microphones or amplifiers. So a singer/guitarist can perform as long as there are no electrical aids and they keep the noise level down.
Outside Fiestas.
The rules are amended.
a. All bars who collaborate to have a mini fiesta will only be allowed two per area per month.
b.They must have their opening licence.
c. Personal liability insurance and
d. Certified fire extinguishers.
It is also up to the bar owners to ensure that any performers have their autonomo as they can be held responsible for employing a non registered worker.
Remember respect the rule of law and respect those officers that are called to enforce the rule of law. You can and will be denounced for disrespecting police officers in the execution of their duty. In all cases, unless specified, music will cease at midnight. Music in the afternoons come under the same rules as that of music in the evenings and any establishment, that has music in the afternoons, must either have the correct licence or be prepared to accept the consequences if they are reported to the police.

On a lighter note, the fiesta that is planned for, 1st, 2nd, and 3rd of August will still go ahead and take place on the Consum Square.

A Cultural trip is being planned to Tabarca on the 12th July at a cost of approximately €18.

The Heroes of San Fulgencio Awards will take place in the Cardenal Beluga Theatre at 8 p.m. on the 11th July. Entertainment will be provided by Shani Ormiston. Tickets are €5 each. There is still time to nominate your Hero. Forms are available from all council offices and the establishments that have sponsored the awards.
Toldos Guardamar, The Hillside Bar, Our Place, Los Amigos, Barclay´s Properties,
The Bell, Woodstock, La Marina Vehicle Services, Bay Radio. Voting can also be by email at, [email protected].
The Categories are : Child of Courage, Fundraiser of the Year, Sports Achievement Award, Parent of the Year, Student of the Year, Teacher of the Year, Bravery Award, The Emergency Services Award, The Good Neighbour Award and a Special Recognition Award.

I wonder if anyone knows, and is willing to tell the truth, to two minor questions that I have asked in the past and as yet have only been given answers to suit the person trying to answer my question.
So truthfully The number of bars with music licence varies between two and five we are down to two at the moment Just who are they, and the other question is that according to the council 70 complaints have been received in the last four months (much the same number that was bandied about for the last couple of years. Are the bars still being blamed for making most of the complaints about other bars ,if not can someone tell us how many people made complaints (i.e. If one person complained 40 times, then in truth only 30 people complained and so on so technically 3 or 4 people complaining, may well be 70 complaints. Have found on this question the council or police wont answer because it suits them not to (no answer is better than a downright lie)

I have often been told that the two Bars with a licence are both at Consum 1st is Poppies now called Bar Bar. 2nd is the Irish Bar just up from Bar Bar. Both have just what we need up here a full Licence for you up to 4.00 am. ie it's for the kids. These are the main ones who wake every one up in the early hours with slamming doors and revving up cars. Of course our police force by then are away and not interested.

Come on weejohn most of the urb would also like very much to hear the honest answers to Alan's question.

Can't help although Sunshine is correct in the 2 bars licenced for live music and extended opening hours .
The rest is pure conjecture and I'm not getting involved in it. Suffice to say based on the blog posted above I don't think the SOME of the bar owners have helped the cause and have buried their head in the sand regarding licences etc in the hope it would go away.
Again if people continually complain rightly or wrongly the bar owners and the residents on the Urb should be told who these people are and what the justification of the complaint should at the very least be explained to the bar owner who has to pay the fine.

From what weejohn says then the only persons who have these facts seem to be the Police. If so someone should be able to obtain them, the police are working for the Urb are they not?

So if Jeffs Blog is the "bible" to go by will that mean ALL the bars in the total area of La Marina not naming names but there are lot some newer than others regularly putting on entertainment every weekend does that mean they will ALL be only having NO MORE "live " amplified entertainment leaving it to the only two legal ones on consum sq where it appears most of the complaints come from so that will leave the moaners with nothing and everything to complain about now everyone knows there are only really only two music bars to now on the moaners door step that should really keep them happy sort of own goal.

Am I the only person with a suspicious mind or what, But reading the comments the two bars that cause the hassle are the two with late licences, yet complaints are never made against these two, although the noise of the traffic on leaving the bars, would warrant it. I believe that police Local cover La Marina 24/7 . So are or should be on duty and are able to stop the noise and perhaps other dodgy dealings, but choose not to, I am sure that if people get music closed down in the afternoon these same people wouldn't want to be woken up with noisy revellers, at 3am so why doesn't anybody seem to complain. I have my ideas. So many questions Now to get answered, but I am almost certain those who have true numbers and reasons, will never tell us the truth, either through fear or favour. This is all my personal thinking Is anybody else willing to put their head above the parapet

Weejohnten, why do you think you have a right to know who is making a complaint to the police? You have made it clear already that some bars are operating outside of the law. Notwithstanding the fact that the majority of bar owners don't have a music licence; those that do are required to not be heard above a certain level outside. If, as a bar owner, you decide to ignore the law and not respect the neighbours, then why shouldn't those having their peace disrupted be able to call the police? Who is in the right? I have monitored this forum for many years and you, Alan and all the other contributors have shown nothing but disrespect for people who many refer to as 'anti-bar' and 'moaners' - nothing could be further from the truth; we support a vibrant and successful Urb. Everybody who writes on this forum knows were the problem bars are; but as a collective you seem unable or unwilling to organise yourselves and confront the owners; instead you choose to direct your anger towards the law-abiding minority on this website. The latest initiative to address the problem seems sensible and pragmatic; but rest assured, the normal suspects will continue to gradually push their luck as we head into summer and I have no doubt we will be back to square one by mid-August. I hope I'm wrong. It seems there is a consensus among certain bars that only loud music and late opening will bring in the punters. Let's not forget that the bars in the Consum area, when all is said and done, are just cafe's. They were never granted permission to be anything more; this is an urban, residential area, so why are they allowed to operate like downtown Benidorm? It is these bars that are ruining it for EVERY other bar on the Urb.

flagkilo.
Welcome to the Forum, You have obviously read my comments past and present, I think you will notice I mention about the new names that appear on here every year whenever the bar debate starts up, These names never appear for a second year but a whole list of new ones do. In fact it is one of the reasons I ask how many complaints the police get and how many different people make them. But whoever you are you are obviously entitled to your opinion,and I read it with great interest

If most of the bars can not be bothered to apply for music licences or even fulfill the terms of an opening licence what chance is there that they will follow guidelines.
Its the same as asking a tearaway who drives without a licence if he wouldnt mind keeping to the speed limit.

Johnmckernanjnr
The very point I was trying to make above, the bars were given a code and told what was required unfortunately it appears some have done nothing. This is unfortunate for the bars who have made inroads into the licence etc .
Bars start doing entertainment in an afternoon still these Zombies complain. You can't win wonder if these people have complained about the rock concert or is that ok because it's not in. Consume square?

Flagkilo
Your not worth anything but contempt,you failed to take any positives out my post great first post from you though

johnmc
I gather you got your information from a truthful reliable source, But who actually told you most bars don't bother applying for a music license. or fulfill the terms of their opening license.

Maybe if the bars displayed a copy of their opening licence, like they should there would not be any confusion, or maybe some people are phoning the police to report them for loud music to see if the police can work out if they have all the correct licences. Only people that do not abide by the rules have a problem with the police being called.

Maybe the answer to this problem is for Jeff L to arrange a meeting between the people who complain about the noise and the bar owners in Consum square who are affected, in order to agree their own terms of how entertainment is to be provided.

Once these rules have been agreed, they should then be documented in measurable terms. Then all bars will have to follow them, or face the consequences, if they stray from what was agreed. On the other side of the argument, if an individual who is affected by the noise (e.g. has complained in the past) doesn’t turn up to this meeting, then they forfeit their rights to complain about noise in the future.

In conclusion - this is only way to remove the main obstacles to progress e.g. the anonymity of the complainers to phone the police without any come backs and for all to know what the rules are!

Get real Jack this aint the wild west. You want an OAP to face the bar owner and admit he made a complaint, thats what the police are for in the modern world. The criteria is already in place, if the bar owner cant keep the noise to the prescribed level he cant have music simple. If you keep getting caught speeding they take your licence away same as.

johnmc,
The Councils and the police issue these licenses ,any licenses not issued by the local councils, are issued by Valencia, So the police know what Bars have what licenses ,or do you believe they don't keep licenses, So what difference does it make if a premises displays a license or not. It would be like me having to show my building license or pool license. on the front of my Villa
for goodness wake up and smell the roses. It suits the power to be to enter a business on any pretext,which is why they go to a bar regarding a noise complaint and check everything else they can possibly think of while they are there, chance to nick the bar owner for something eventually. The only problem the police and council have , is that when the bar complaints stop, who can complain to the police and will it allow them to continue with this idiotic idea because if they make enough in fines it may save some jobs next year .

Do you own a business Alan because the world you describe is nothing like the world that exists when the police visit my premises.

johnmc,
No john I do not own a business, I gather I am in a dream world, because I had the sense not to move to another country to earn money, when the U.K. gave me many ways to earn money so that I could happily retire at a decent age.
But I am interested in learning, so tell me a bit about your business, as it seems that you have visits from the police, so let us know about how they behave

I WOULD LIKE TO ASK A QUESTION FROM THE LOCAL COUNCIL HOW MANY BARS/ RESTAURANTS/CAFES ETC HAVE ACTUALLY GOT A LICENCE IE; A PROPER ON THE WALL COMPLIANT LICENCE. NOT A LETTER SAYING LICENCE APPLICATION IN PROGRESS, THE REASON I ASK THIS IS BECAUSE THE BUSINESSES ON THE LOWER LEVEL OF CONSUM SQUARE INCLUDING CHIEF O'NEILS ETC HAVE NO I REPEAT NOFIRE ESCAPE FROM THE REAR OF THE BUILDING IE; IF THERE WERE AN INCIDENT IN THE KITCHEN OR ROOMS BEYOND HOW WOULD PEOPLE ESCAPE (STAFF). ORIGINALLY I THOUGHT ABOUT RENTING ONE OF THESE UNITS I WAS INFORMED BY A SPANISH SOLICITOR THAT SAID UNITS WOULD NEVER BE LICENCED BECAUSE OF THE HAZARDOUS NATURE OF THEIR CONSTRUCTION .

Alan & Lynda
8 years ago I was looking to buy a bar. I looked at 11 bars and only 1 had a full opening licence the rest had applied for licences which means legally they should not open their doors. Yes years ago the authorities mostly turned a blind eye but it puts you outside the law. Not one of the bars I looked at were paying all their staff on contract which again is illegal. When I asked why this was happening the reply was always " You cant make a living if you give all your staff a contract" which also means the staff are working illegally to subsidize their employer and as most are desperate for money they will take a chance. The police do not need an excuse to enter any business like a complaint of noise, they can walk in whenever they want so someone is feeding you BS Alan. To obtain an opening licence things like fire escapes and disabled toilets and endless list needs to be done to a satisfactory standard yet many Brits take the chance and open anyway. I can tell you again to open a business without an opening licence is against the law and puts you outside the law and with the Spanish authorities being short of money the blind eye is being opened.

Johnmc
I fully understand what you are saying, and undoubtably what you say is probably true. To put my point a bit clearer ,the Police and the Council already have a computerized list of businesses and what licenses they need or have, They could walk in and close these businesses down any time they like, but they prefer not too. They need a successful Urb. and closing things down does not help the urb or San Fulgencio (Already it has been reported that because of the downturn of people on the Padron , San Fulgencio will lose 4 of its Council members next may,so taking that as a guide, we also lose police ,doctor,other health staff, and that is not bullshit) in fact talking about my bullshit, Councillor Jeff, claimed it doesn't matter how many Bars are closed down people will buy them and re-open them. Also with exPC Jeff,he tells everyone not to be rude to police, But does nothing to say the Officer whom it is said insulted (to be Polite) members of the general public, who were having a drink on the terrace of a Bar and to staff, Had in anyway been told to curb his bad attitude.
P.s. Johnmc.Got carried away,and forgot to mention,you forgot to answer my question

Hello lyndamaysoussi,
I would like to answer your question, we have a complete opening license & we have a door at the back of our unit which can be used by staff & public in an emergency.
Hello Johnmckernanjnr,
I'm afraid your statement "I can tell you again to open a business without an opening licence is against the law and puts you outside the law and with the Spanish authorities being short of money the blind eye is being opened" is not accurate, it is very much possible to open a business & operate a business within the law of Spain on application of an opening license provided the business has paid the taxes due for the opening license which is approximately €1000.
I know this because it took me two & a half years to obtain my opening license, this was considered to be quick,reason why it was quick was because I was at the town hall on regular basis finding out what needed to be done in order to comply, the alterations I needed to make came to approximately €5.500 last year, sadly not every bar can afford to make the necessary changes in order to comply,this is the reason why there are so many bars/businesses without opening licenses, but once its done & the business has its license that should be it, we hope ??

Thanks Hogs Head, It just goes to show not to believe anyone who tells you, that you have been listening to Bullshit, because chances are they are about to feed you Bullshit, Hence the reason johnmc couldn't answer my two questions I ask him, but went on the attack instead, as the saying goes 'sometimes, attack is the best form of defence´' Don't expect me to believe you again johnmc

Alan I did not realise that you had asked a question as I never saw a question mark.. I have always found the police to be polite and always very helpful if something was not as it should be, even to go as far as recommending the cheapest way to get around the problem. The business that I primarily operate is in setting up car bodyshops and importing cars. First of all I didnt answer your question then in your next post its two questions and I have reread my post and can not see where I attack anyone just an explanation of why I did not invest in any bars as the return did not seem good enough. I do not understand why you should call me a liar because I did not supply this info this morning. If you are looking for an argument I suggest we meet up and sort this out rather than becoming keyboard warriors.

Why not Johnmc, I prefer a chat face to face I have said on here often body language tells more than words.
But getting back to the thing that upset you.
Firstly I didn't call you a liar,i said you did to me something that you thought someone had done to me earlier ,and that is fed me Bullshit. In that a comment you made stated categorically that opening a bar without a license is against the law. I replied that I agree with your sentiment (I believed what you said) Then someone who has a bar stated it definitely wasn't against the law to open without a license ,so now I have to believe that the later comment is true so yours could be bullshit. If you have written bullshit, can you think that I will believe what you say next time before checking it .
Also slight misunderstanding on questions the one I asked was have you been told officially that most of the bars couldn't be bothered to apply for a music license,and couldn't be bothered about forfilling a n opening license, or was that la Marina Grapevine

To answer your question it is from two artists that have performed in La Marina. If fact Kevin Tyler has gone on record on the Torrevieja forum just today and stated that very few of the many bars he plays in has a music licence.

Hi Hogs head. Nice to see someone that takes the law seriously and does things the right way and you have your licence now. But to your point that you are 100% legal operating a business without an opening license is not correct. Yes I agree it is common practice but if something bad was to happen it could turn bad. E.G the police can shut you down if you do not have an opening licence but it must go to court if you are in possession of an opening licence I have just had this confirmed by Snr Zaplana who is a practicing solicitor and he mayor at Catral town hall if you want to check my story Alan.

Oh dear Alan's back
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_I226Sfgs0s

Sometimes I dont get my point across correctly so maybe if I give a personal example it might help.
When I applied for my last opening licence I was given a list by the town hall and told that they wouldnt bother me for 2 years.
On that list was to put in exit signs disabled toilets, fire extinguishers and many other things but the big item was a 18,000e sprinkler system. I was told by my solicitor that because I had been notified in my application the requirements for an opening licence that if I opened without implementing every thing on the list and say someone died in a fire I would be classed by law to be 100% liable. If I implemented everything on the list I would by default obtain an opening licence and thus could not be held liable for an accident unless they could prove negligence. Hope this clears up the situation as I understand it, but as you all know ask 5 solicitors a question and you will get 5 different answers.

Lyndamaysoussi, please take off your Caps lock - it's poor forum etiquette.

I see we have returned to the normal state of affairs; in-fighting between bars because you cannot organise yourselves to operate on an agreed level playing field. This long running issue is, and always has been about the bars in the Consum area making excessive late night noise and disturbing residential home owners; a minority that knows the law and is not about to go away. Alan, this is an open forum and you seem to have an opinion on most threads, but you are not a bar owner and you are lucky enough to not to be affected by late night disturbance. So why are You turning this into a binary issue of 'all bars V Moaners' because it's just not the case. If all responsible bars owners took those causing problems to task all this nonsense would go away. In any case, you are not a stakeholder, so I don't see why you need to be so vocal on the issue.

I \was a stakeholder and after loseing 100K euros nothing has changed still fighting about enterainment.As for the remark of me useing my caps lock do you not know that this is a way of putting your opinion across firmly and that was my intention.

flagkilo
When was the bar noise dispute only about the Consume area when it is also affecting bars not in that area,? the Council and the police are not only having a pop at the Consume Area,
I also do not see much of this bar v bar argument that you appear to see, I think you are upset because the Bars have decided not to enter this dispute with you. Perhaps the answer to that is that Last year when you had a pop at Tommy (apparently he doesn't live near Consume) he spoke about new names that appear on this forum then vanish after trying to wind everybody up regarding bars. This year you decided to use the same name as last year, Unfortunately this left a trail, and I discovered every single comment you have made on this forum has been anti bar and anti everybody who doesn't have your thought waves.,
As for your personal attack on me normal answer is 'Does this face look bothered' Yes I do write on most topics ,If I have an opinion I will state it , If you agree or disagree with me you are free to write on this forum to say so, you may even get me to change my mind. That is surely some of what a forum is for.( I wont be vindictive and say that this is the second year you have appeared as flagkilo,and EVERY single comment you have ever written is anti-bar ,if bars are the only thing that worry you, you are a lucky person
Just remember, You and I woke up this morning, a lot of people didn't, be grateful for the sunshine and the showers, and don't worry about where I live. I will stay as long as possible and enjoy it. You will be pleased to know that you havn't persuaded me to stop writing about the few people who don't agree with the many