THIS IS THE START OF THE FINISH OF LIVE MUSIC ON THE URB:

This is very sad and many peoples feelings will go out to all at Cagneys.
But this could just be the beginning This law is an act passed quietly a few years ago by the EU Parliament in Brussels and it is enforceable all over Europe. The TRUTH is up to now it has just been ignored hoping it will just go away. Well it wont. It needs some fairly quick action
So keep in mind that each of these areas in Spain are represented at Brussels by a Politician from each of these said areas here, ie we do have a voice at the table. Then they need to get together and submit a well worded amendment to the said law and get it tabled at Brussels. Being that it is only an amendment and not strictly new legislation it would be fairly easy to do if they planed it well enough and worked together.
It does seem that Alicant Gurdamar and Torrevieja are starting to at least think about answers. But they will need to gain strength by gathering all areas together and get there EU MPS on board and quickly.
Also keep in mind that this will be affecting and causing problems all across other European countries not just here. So a combined effort would and should be possible..
Yes this is pure Politics and I am fully aware that to most people it is boring, BUT this is one of those times when the public need to shout out loud that in their opinion an amendment is needed.
Just in passing the local council are also in a position where there hands are tied behind there backs, the best the can do is to Lobby heavily the MEP for our area and hope other areas do the same
This is only my opinion and observations based on having been a back room boy in national politics in the UK. But action is needed and swiftly.

I think that we all feel for Rick and Kate and this really sad affair.
All that you have said regarding the fact that we all need to get together and table an amendment to the EU law has been started about 3 weeks ago.
Alan I believe you are a member of the group Keep Entertainment Live on the Costa Blanca so maybe are aware of the background work going on to make the amendment possible.
I did post about this subject on this forum quite recently and still hope people of La Marina will join and provide their support.
Jax Lawson formed a Face Book group to see what the effect of this law was on the Costa Blanca and the response was over whelming not only on the Costa Blanca but from all over Spain.
She has had meetings with the Councils and Police reps in Torrevieja and Guardamar and is having further meetings next week with the council in Torrevieja to finalise the wording for the petition calling for the amendment to the law, this will be submitted to the government in Madrid for a change to for the whole of Spain.
Jeff our local councillor has been very supportive and provided lots of information and assistance with the group focus.
A documentary is being made by a German company for You Tube which will highlight the problems faced by businesses affected by the clamp down on noise.
So this is not a local problem, but one facing many areas of Spain.
Can I again ask the as many as possible are made aware the group https://www.facebook.com/groups/573526356093152/?fref=nf
Is on line and provides more information.
30,000 signatures are needed as a minimum for the petition to be accepted and reviewed by government. So sign up and do something before many areas become ghost towns as already some areas are becoming.

Alan your post THIS IS THE START OF THE FINISH OF LIVE MUSIC ON THE URB:
Would say was incorrect it is the whole of Spain it seems?
Will any of them have the gumption to try and change it. This will as time goes buy affect SPAIN VERY BADLY.
Seems like complainers now have the upper hand over the rest of us.

Have A Nice day,
I stated la marina, As I was writing onto a Local La Marina Forum.
As yet Rickey and Kate are the only owners that I know who have been fined, I popped in to see Rickey this morning and he and Kate are absolutely gutted, and I can tell you it showed on Rickeys face.
I really like Cagneys and the owners and staff, you couldn't want a Friendlier place to have a drink in, But because of a vendetta against them, they are being penalized. I will not say who or what the vendetta is about, but hopefully Rickey or Kate will say in the future, and then you will understand, my particular anger.
Sorry about that, I am just so annoyed for them. But in answer to your point, Yes technically I was wrong to say La Marina, but if that is the case then you was incorrect in saying Spain, This pointless law was actually supposedly made over 10 years ago and covers every Country in the European Union.
Please can I ask you all in favour of an amendment to this ludicrous European Crap law to read ianibosnia comment to click onto the link and join the group we advocate,this way very shortly you will be allowed to sign a e- petition to get this Act altered.

This law is an act passed quietly a few years ago by the EU Parliament in Brussels and it is enforceable all over Europe.
.......an amendment to the EU law............
This pointless law was actually supposedly made over 10 years ago and covers every Country in the European Union.

What number or name has this law that everyone writes about. It might be interesting to to read the text of the law to understand why it exists.

The UK amended the EU law of 2003 in 2012, It is known as the Live Music Act 2012
The UK legislation allows licensed establishments to have live music for up to 200 patrons without further permission. Even the Spanish press have commented on this.
This would resolve a lot of problems for bars etc.

Interesting reply Ian
But one of the main parts of all this is connected with the Local Police that being, if a member of the Public makes a complaint then the Police upon investigation are advised to tell the premises to stop the music This by the looks of it will then get to the National Police. Via a report to say in our area to Valencia.
So my question is how is this side of it mentioned in the Act. IF AT ALL.

Playing devils advocate, did cagneys get fined for breaking the law ? even if they or others don't agree with the law it is still the law, but if they or any other bar have all the correct paperwork to open there business there should be no problem but how would you feel if you ran a bar with all the correct paperwork etc and others did not would that be a just law to let them carry on? maybe a few people are missing the point why not run a legitimate bar within the law

2nd Casa,
I think you do not get the point, It is a European Law, not who has got what Licence that is the problem. The Euro`pean law deems that noise from anywhere should be kept to a reasonable decibel so that it is not unfit for purpose (i.e may be bad for your health) If you look through your computer at some time you can find out what the maximum noise permissible is for almost every tool of the trade it is clarified in Decibels, unfortunately no one can seem to find the limit for music when you are out enjoying yourselves.
So consequently any complaint taken to the police regarding noise will be deemed as being bad for the health of the person complaining and the noise has to be curtailed unless the complainant withdraws his complaint. So you see your piece doesn't hold water. But what it may do is get a few house owners sweating a bit when the National Police start knocking on doors to check non existent licences for building alterations. What a nice easy earner for Valencia,

As I said above playing devils advocate, regard less of a vendetta the facts are the facts the law is the law and has been broken whether you or I like the law, but if the bar or bars are legitimately run there should be no problem or are you condoning the running of illegal businesses just to make a profit to the detriment of others that is the point PS if cagneys are running within the law why are they not carrying on and if every one is backing them they should still have a viable bar without the entertainment

I totally agree Alan. Maybe 2nd Casa should name a few bars that have the correct license. Kate & Ricky try their best to stay within the law. They do not even have late music. There definitely seems to be a Vendetta against them. So sad when people are so jealous. It is such a shame that just a few are trying to spoil the urb. If they don't like it they should go back to boring UK. Then they can moan about all the things that are wrong in the UK. Which they will not be able to change. Get a life!!!!!
If it is noise that is a problem, then I think it will be only time when we can denounce our noisy neighbours and those that are keeping owners away from their homes during the summer holidays, due to the noise around the pools. What a Happy place La Marina will become.

I am not adverse to some entertainment I was just playing devils advocate which sadly some have missed the point, if the bar or bars are within the law why are they being fined ? YOU really don't seem to see what I am saying do you ?

2nd casa
I understand what you are trying to say. Three years ago our Councillor explained the RULES. I cannot remember word for word but it goes something like this. If a person thinks that the sounds permeating from inside or around a bar or restaurant is too much he may phone the police and make a complaint. The police will attend the bar or restaurant listen from the outside,it they feel the noise is high they will enter the bar and tell the owner to either turn down or turn off the music,if the noise isn't deemed loud they will go to the complainant and ask them to withdraw their complaint,if he or she refuses to withdraw the complaint The POLICE WILL GO BACK TO THE BAR and tell them to turn the music down. Licences do not come into. why Cagneys was fined three thousand euros. If you need a bit more to chew on the police also said they intend on closing live music all over the Urb.

Hi Everyone,
Kate here from Cagney's Bar. Just want to set the record straight re the latest music problems in La Marina.
I begin by setting the picture. Ricky and I had took over Cagney's Bar in February 2010. In the last 4 1/2 years we have entertained hundreds maybe even thousands of residents, plus numerous holidaymakers, with good quality music, giving the urbanisation what it desperately needed to keep it alive. In May 2012 the police were called to the square. We watched this happen as a neighbouring bar owner, who had been asked to turn her music down earlier in the week, stood outside our bar and rang from her mobile phone. This lady lives in La Escuera so could not possibly have heard the music from her house. She spent a total of one hour outside the bar yelling at 3 of our Locale police officers. (By which time our music had actually finished!) The result was 3 denuncias, one for ourselves, one for the Phoenix bar and one for the Amsterdam bar. At no time were we asked to turn the music down. Sadly, whilst the valuable time of these 3 officers was being taken up, the house of one of our customers, in our bar at the time, was being cleared our by robbers!!! It's disgraceful and she should be so ashamed of herself.
Our 2nd denuncia came in October 2013. Midafternoon gentle karaoke, nothing loud just a bit of entertainment for the residents. A local estate agent arrives for a property viewing across the road from the bar, within minutes the police arrive. Not a word to ask us to turn it down. Again another call from a mobile phone not a proper landline address. Incorrect procedure followed a second time. We receive a call from the agents denying it but then saying they didn't realise it was Ricky's bar!!! Enough said. Then February 2014, our 4th anniversary, and we are packed. What a great line up. I even sang with Ricky for an hour which everyone loved. Police arrive, stop right now. Denuncia. No request to turn things down.No procedure followed again. The next morning gossip is rife amongst our Spanish neighbours in our local grocers. They tell me who made the call and why. The chap is on an opposing political party to our Spanish landlord and we were used as pawns in his game to get back at him.
So, 2 months ago we receive a visit from the Nacionales with a letter carrying a fine of 3,000 Euros. A thousand for each visit. We appeal, at the additional expense of our solicitor. The reason for the letter because one of our La Marina locale police officers decided to go above the heads of both our mayor and our chief of police and send the 3 denuncias direct to Valencia instead of passing them on to the mayor. This week the Nacionales return with a letter giving us 15 days to pay the fine. They order us to take down our live music posters from the walls. They did joke by asking if Rick's poster was taken 20 years ago! (Don't think he was too chuffed!) They then told us never to have live music again or we could incur a larger fine up to 30,000 Euros. They also informed us that our papers going to Valencia had 'opened up a can of worms' for La Marina and the Nacionales were planning to swoop on the Urb soon and close down all the live music. They sternly said 'No more music in La Marina ever, it's finished.' We are not wishing to scaremonger, we are just passing the facts on as they were given to us.
Obviously we are gutted. I love our Friday and Sunday afternoons with the bar buzzing as people dance, clap and laugh as they enjoy Rick's singing.
First instinct was to walk away, pull the shutters down and give the keys back to the landlord, who is such a decent chap. Why should we bust a gut working every hour under the sun just to line some Valencia offical's pocket? (This is not a throwaway comment by the way as 2 weeks ago Bay Radio announced that billions of euros have become unaccounted for in Valenca!!!)
The defiant side of me says why should we give in to these bullies who are abusing a European directive to extort money out of innocent business owners. We are also still smarting about the crass insensitive comment made by councillor Jeff on his blog a couple of months ago. Forgive me but I am quoting from memory, it said 'I do not believe that La Marina will become a ghost town because for every bar that closes there will always be someone else to reopen it.' This was a most incredibly thoughtless statement to make. For every bar that closes means a loss of earnings, loss of staff, loss of life savings sunk into buying the bar. But that's ok because someone else will just walk in and take it over for nothing!!!I So in our case these actions have resulted in loss of takings, therefore reduced taxes that we will pay, reduced brewery orders, the loss of our barman who is no longer needed to work the bar whilst Ricky sings and a request to our landlord for our rent to be reduced. Knock on effect. It's one big snowball.
To add insult to injury, Rick played at a bar in El Pinet last month and, based on the problems we have been having, the bar contacted Elche town hall to apply for a licence to have the music. The response was 'What do you want a licence for? You don't need one. Just carry on, there won't be any problems with the police.' The night was fabulous , 300 people, police drove past, didn't even slow down. San Fulgencio, you need to take a leaf out of Elche's book!!!
So as I say this has made us defiant. Therefore we will pay the fine, at the expense of not having a much earnt holiday this year, and we will keep struggling on. We will try find other ways to entertain the ever dwindling population of La Marina to the best of our ability. Ricky is working on an acoustic set to perform in the bar. No microphone, no amplifier, no grounds for the police to stop us. Crippling on the voice but nevertheless it has to be done.Just don't ask Ricky where we are going on holiday this year as you may not get the polite answer you were expecting!!!
As for opening licences, don't even get me started on that one. Four and and half years down the road, 300E to the first solicitor who pockets the money and does nothing about it, reapplied in April 2012, letter sits at the Town Hall for nearly 2 years 'Return To Sender' , then in March this year 1,200E paid for the licence followed by last month 2000E for a sprinkler system to be installed in our kitchen before we can have our licence. Job not finished because the company is on holiday for August. Still no licence. As I said don't get me started. It's all a huge administrative mess and an absolute joke. How is anyone expected to run a business in La Marina?
Right, it's now 10.30pm and it should be my evening off and believe me i could be doing so many other better things than justifying myself to La Marina but hey ho I think it's time for a stiff G&T infront of the TV with a cuddle from my loving dog Little Cagney, who was rescued by a local charity from the abuse from his Spanish police officer/owner 4 years ago. Don't tell Rick about the G&T though because I'm supposed to be doing the books for the bar whilst he is in La Manga entertaining the Costa Blanca!
For anyone still awake who has got this far down the posting - Here endeth the lesson for today!!! Goodnight (& Sorry!!!)

Kate, we are behind you, so wish we were there to support you now. You and Ricky work so hard for the good of the Urb, I know you try to do everything by the books. We will be back to support you next month.

Just to follow on from Kate,s comment on how insensitive Jeff is, when the Presidents association had a meeting with the Mayor with regards to music in bars Jeff was present.He thought it was a great idea and said he would personally go round all the bars asking for support and to sign the petition.When we had the next meeting Jeff had done nothing when asked he said he had taken Legal Advice and was told not to get involved well I thought that was what he was elected for to help all of the local community.He still attends the council meetings getting paid but what as he done the only time you see him is when there is a photo shoot with him presenting some cheque for a local charity.Well it is election time next year who knows what will happen.

david, Jeff was elected for the party he represents. He is part of a coalition that has a political program for San Fulgencio. He must follow the agreement or suspend his political mission.
So if you want a change you have to wait until the next election. And then vote for any party that supports bar-owners. And hope they can be part of a governing majority.

Well I read all the way through cagneys posting all points well stated in what happened to you and I understand what you and all the other bar owners want to do, BUT can you cagneys answer one thing ARE you permitted to have entertainment or not no beating about the bush a YES or NO, much as I like entertainment etc I can see the moaners point of view as well, it looks like its a free for all with bars snitching on each other as one bar has more customers than they do if all the places kept to what they are permitted to do then have maybe just maybe you would all earn a profit if you had a viable business model or plan in place within the confines that are in place, meaning the best would flourish leaving the area with what people want and enjoy ( maybe even the moaners would find something they like )

Reindeer.
You are wrong ,jeff does not have to follow what the PP want him to follow, He is his own man and is only answerable to his constituents and his own beliefs.
david made a valid truthful statement when he said Jeff said that he would go round every bar to explain what was happening,instead he later admitted that he didn't go to any bars,but a member of his staff visited a couple,he then made things worse by trying to wriggle out of his incompence by saying he was advised not to go to any bars. You really need to keep up with what Jeff says and what he does I further suggest that if you want to carry on with this discussion than start another thread,this one is about people who have something to lose not about silly statements.

2nd Casa I am not sure if you know Kate and Ricky well, if you do, you would know that they try to do everything by the book. As Kate has explained she has been paying and trying to get things in order, which has cost them a lot of money. If you don't go to their bar, I suggest you make a visit and introduce yourself, as I am sure they would welcome you, and you would not just be a name on this website, and they may understand why you are so against British people who come here to make a living, arranging things for the local community where their bar is situated. This is a vendetta against Cagneys and The British. I have had a property here in Spain since 1984 and have never heard of problems that La Marina have with Music.

I am not anti British have you read what I asked about cagneys or any other establishment being allowed entertainment etc a straight forward YES or NO. I am playing devils advocate so that people can see the whole for and against as I can see both sides without taking a side much as I like the entertainment, if they can answer the question as to what entertainment is allowed and what is not it would put the whole debate into perspective for all concerned, so far there have been lots of comments etc but all side stepping an answer YES or NO to what is allowed, or is that because no one wants say the answer as it may well change the course of the debate.

Alan,of course Jeff can do whatever he wants to do. But remember that then this Council was formed they had to get some form of consensus to work together. That is normal in every coalition in a democratic country. If Jeff leaves the Council he can work in opposition or try to form another majority together with the other parties. And speak for the bar-owners.

As suggested reindeer I have started another thread for our debate regarding jee

Thank you to everyone that has taken the time to read my epic posting. I will answer the question put to me about live music. The answer is simply that our bar and NO other bar/establishment in San Fulgencio is allowed to have live music. As a result of the action of the 3 denuncias against my bar being sent to Valencia I have received a letter changing my opening licence application from Bar Con Musica Ambiente to Bar SIN Musica Ambiente. This means we are not even allowed the televisions or the radio on!!! As I stated in my original posting the Nacionales clearly stated the law is the law and no one in La Marina is allowed to have live music. I hope this clarifies. Kate

Thank you Kate / cagneys this then must put a different slant to the debate as it now seems the moaners do have a point, and I hope there is a way round this as it could well finish the area as we know it. I would like to think there is a need for entertainment in the area but within some guide lines adhered to by all as a lot of this has been brought about by back stabbing and sniping on each others bars. PS now we have this answer from Kate/ Cagneys does that change some people s views on what is right and wrong and will they still all stand by there favourite bars or will they just let them fall by the wayside and find something else to do if there is no more entertainment.

Unfortunately, an arrangement was made with the council and the police, that the bars could have music if they followed the guidelines agreed, thanks to Tommy. Due to the "moaners" and those who like to cause trouble, there will be no more entertainment, of any sort. BINGO, QUIZS TEC.
The end of La Marina!!!!! When I first bought in Spain, I would have never bought in La Marina, to far away from any where. It was very cheap. Unfortunately, things will be the same again soon. With loads of cheap empty houses, prices are so low now, people are giving their homes away. Why can't people just live and let live, and let those who have no choice but to stay here enjoy their lives.

BUT did they follow the guidelines, how can you blame the "moaners" or anyone else for that matter do they not have the same rights as you and I to complain if the law is not followed, if the guidelines were followed why has this come about again maybe the answer is there but some do not want to see or hear it as it could be there own doing that contributed to the situation by sniping and back biting on each other and not seeing the bigger picture.

PS I said all along I was playing devils advocate (thus not being my views) but to try and open up the debate with some facts rather than just peoples understanding of things

My understanding is that La Marina will be finished!!!!!! Already all the young people have gone back, the young Spanish have gone to places like Germany to work. All that is left are those on their pensions, wished we hadn't retired, as we should have stayed in business!!!! As La Marina, will be God's waiting room.

Well 2nd casa or should that be devils advocate now you know from Cagneys that the bars have not got a licence you can start reporting all the others.

A lot of Ex pats like me included have opened a business without their opening licence in their hand and then complain that the authorities are changing the rule. I was advised by the Town Hall that it was OK to open a business as long as I had applied for an opening licence but when the police got involved fine after fine arrived. I went to a solicitor who said to me "an opening licence means you can open your business much like a driving licence means you can drive a car." Would you start to drive just because you had applied for a licence. I really sympathise with you Kate and hope its worth going on but I keep trying to get the message to all the other Ex Pats without an opening licence you are outside the law and the authorities WILL hit you hard if they catch you or get a complaint much the same as driving without a licence.

Hi Have a nice day. I know exactly how gutted Kate and Rickey are feeling , We were also fined 3,000 a while ago, we have mentioned it before, We know others who have been fined as well. that's a lot of hours work -pay in someone's pocket., x

Did you get fined for being within the law ? silly me of course you do, it seems a lot of you have misconstrued the points I am making, this bar / entertainment wars has all come about of your own making I have been in La marina for decades now and have never known the snitching and back biting to have been so bad I can recall how good the place used to be back all those years ago when the bars etc did not seem to want to out do each other

Rocket science!!

casa 2
O.K. you keep on that some of these bars do not have a license. I dare say you believe some never have had the relevant Licences for the business they carry on. So the police wait for a denuncia to be arrive on a desk in Valencia, and the police take a bit of paper and demand three thousand Euro fine. If this is the case, then why dont this council issue denuncias against every business (It is not only bars that have to buy licence In a day they would of looked at paperwork in council offices and know who did not have relevant licences,,they could send someone out on a bit of over time to collate and hundreds of fines could be issued without a minute of police time being wasted. So don't harp on about Licences and devils advocate and just come out stop this crap you keep writing about, saying is it fair on those who pay for the correct licences, and just say that music aint your scene so stuff the rest of you. I believe I am an honest and truthful person, but when I stop and think of the things I have said and done in the past, I realize I am not and never have been as truthful and honest as I like to think I am. As a final thought I know I pay all my dues in this Country, But I. tell you what, I don't care who gets away with not paying all the dues, as long as they are not directly nicking anything of mine.

Your opinion, but still the facts are the facts like it or not I am only stating the glaringly obvious the fine WAS / IS for breaking the law how ever unjust you or I feel that it is, and no I am not anti music or British, just stating another part of the debate its good to get other peoples thoughts on things

2nd casa
When you admit that it wasn't anything to do with the License, It was the complaint about supposed noise , The music licence never came into it, you was about the only person who claimed the lack of a music license was the reason for the fine, infact you harped on about it so much when proclaiming to be a Devils Advocate, that I ended up thinking you was an owner or worker in one of the few bars with a full license.

You seem to miss the point that IF there was a license in the 1st place there would be no fine as they or any other bar would be working within the law

Alan I know you are not stupid but. If a bar without the correct opening licence or music licence gets a visit from the police they are in trouble whether they are expat or Spanish, what part do you not understand. I have read your quote "licences dont come into it" BUT THEY DO Its people like you making comments like that that are causing problems If you have all the correct licences they can ask you to turn it down or if you persist they must take you to court a much better outcome than a 3000e because you dont have a licence. Dont attack the messenger.

I hope the uk gets itself out of the eu ASAP esp Scotland

I would suggest that if all live music has to stop on the urb then everyone should boycott the Fiestas because they make more noise than anyone else on the Urb. I am not against them but why should they be allowed to make as much noise as they like and we have to put up with it..

Caroline, If you have the correct licence you can have loud music.

I am not missing your point 2nd Casa. The fine was issued probably due to an interpretation of a 2003 European Law. And the consequences if it is not taken seriously. As I see it their is a noise limit over which it may be serious to someones health, if this law is broken and someone complains and the country in question does nothing to allievate the problem the Country will be fined by the European Court. further fines will be collected and used as payment to said injured persons.It took a long time before someone realized that if you complain about noise whenever you can,you can make a pretty good living out of it.
Bars were a funny issue as a decibel number was not given,so nobody knows what it is or if it is danderous. The U.K soon realized the problem and had the Law in the U.K amended in bars,H olding less than 200 people, the law was suspended.
That is how I read it at this time. That is why at this moment many towns are meeting to get some sort of agreement so save what they can of their holiday status.
Believe as much or as little of this as you like, I choose at this moment in time the only thing that makes any sense. I really cannot see Valencia closing down what people enjoy just to throw everything they have worked hard for, to achieve over these last 20 or so years

John
you are so wrong, It doesn't matter what licence you have if someone outside of the building complains to police and refuses to budge from that complaint the Music MUST be turned down or turned off, don't get agreements mixes with laws. Fiestas will go on for as long as it suits the vast majority of people, They will be allowed because this Country wants them to. End of Story

I have been in Spanish bars in Elche when the police have been called because someone says the music is too loud. The police come and if they havent checked all the licence's on a previous visit they check the licence and if all is ok and they think it is too loud they tell them to turn it down, end of story. If the licences are not all OK a massive fine follows. Simple really, have all the licences in place before having music. Does anyone notice that all the places that Alan mentions that have a problem are all predominantly ex pat areas and when you ask the police why the answer is always the same. "you dont seem to think the Spanish rules apply to you"

Caroline, If you are sure that you are right I suggest that next time there is a fiesta with loud music complain. I can assure you you will be told that they have the correct licence to have loud music. Everything in Spain is done by licence, you need a licence to paint your window frames, a licence to have a bonfire, a licence to replace a tile blown of your roof etc. You might get away without the correct licence for 50 years but that doesnt mean you shouldnt have a licence.

Funnily enough John I have been in bars in La Marina when the police have arrived after a complaint ,no paperwork required ,quick chat with owner shrug by police and police gone ,All it means that different police have different ideas, some right some wrong,I don't think either of us will change our minds john,but we wouldn't have a forum if everybody agreed . I mean I have a driving licence and I drove at 30 kph when that was the law in La Marina, I bet you would of broken the law and drove at 50kph(Ha ha) please take the last comment in the joking way it was written

Lets call a halt to the debate as we will never change and it will just go round and round trying to get our points across nice debating with you all, happy days and nights with entertainment in the right place

Your right I have driven over the speed limit before, but if I ever got caught I wouldnt complain that it was a vendetta against us. If you read my post I did say that if the police have been called on a previous occasion and checked the licences that they dont normally need to check them again. When I was in a Spanish bar and the police came and told him to turn the music down I made a point of asking why he hadnt checked his licence and was told once they know you have all the correct licences it is very rare to check them again. I admit I am on a little crusade to get as many ex pats to under stand that these licences are what drives the Spanish economy and are very important to them. I have had big fines in two instances where I did not have the correct licences and because I had been advised by people on similar forums that it was ok to open a business without the licence in your hand, which was accepted as the norm although illegal and by having a bonfire without a licence.

I for one really can't get my head round all this licence business,.......I know for a fact that 3 of the bars I frequent on the urb have applied and paid for opening licences,.....one of the bars has been waiting for 4 years for it to come through,...so in the mean time they have been running the bar on a piece of paper saying the licence has been applied and paid for and by all accounts that seems fine,.....but what was to happen if the police came into these said bars and deemed this piece of paper as null and void?,.....are you telling me that the proprietors of these said bars should be paying rent on and for a business for possibly up to 4 years and not allowed to trade until the proper opening licence materialises?,....if this is the case then some person I can only assume in the council offices is sure as hell not doing their job correctly, or is this just the norm?

r moreton,
What you are saying is exactly what I have heard many times before.
Even the Local Councillors seem to agree that this is so, and that an application is proof of purchase.
But we are being told by some people that we have been lied to by the Councillors that we voted to help us.
What would be a problem is that if you cannot do anything to your own property unless you have a license and they take forever to get at times (in fact some you cannot have until the job is finished) then how many hundreds of people on this urb. just may get a knock on the door one day and end up with a large fine, for something you was assured by the local council was entirely legal.
Or perhaps this is a different set of rules. Does anybody know the true legal answers or are we all just looking at the common sense answers, But not thinking in Spanish.
Other than that, putting your thoughts on this forum will not make one iota of difference, no matter what we
say we will not all agree

Having fallen foul of opening a business without having the licence in my hand let me explain. When you apply for an opening licence the town hall and your architect agree on what needs to be done to obtain a full licence. I was assured that the town hall would turn a blind eye for up to two years as I needed to install a 30,000e sprinkler system that I could not afford, if I had installed the system from the word go and met all the other requirements I would have been handed an opening licence before I opened my business. When all the agreed work is undertaken you get the licence but until you have the licence they can add as much other required work as they can get away with. If someone has waited for four years it is because they have not fulfilled all the work agreed on the opening licence agreement or their legal representative is not doing their work correctly.
With regard to a licence for say a bonfire. You go to the local police and obtain a licence free of charge giving you 20 days to have a bonfire ( only available in certain months of the year). The day that you have the bonfire you inform the local police today is the day so that if there is a report of a fire out of control they have a good idea where to go . Makes sense to me now but I never knew when I got reported for having a bonfire.

John you say the licences are what the Spanish economy thrives on, but they don't seem to think farther than their nose as the tourist trade is what it thrives on as well, and no bars with music = no tourists. Like it or not that's what they come for, so millions will be lost in income for the country. Not to speak of the millions us home owners stand to lose! Yet again Brussels and EU are controlling, as they have done in UK with immigrants, price regulations and quotas etc. Maybe its time for a referendum.....

Thats exactly why the town halls turn a blind eye when a business jumps the gun, but the police dont seem to care, the Guardia are an army division and they know that they are in a job for life however many tourist there are. It has to be a political solution that the police abide by.

Back biting and snitching between bars resulted due to the fact that certain bars were targeted and others left alone. Human nature prevailed. If in the first instance, the law was across the board, all bars would have been in the same boat, without a paddle. As for our deputy mayor, why doesn't he get off his well salaried arse and help fight our corner ?

I would not bother to complain about the loud music, I would just stay away. If everyone did this then they may get the message, Its obvious they are going to get the licences for the Fiesta. its "our" money they are getting them with - its not coming out of their pockets. There are two sets of people. The one's who work for the Government , or other non profit making organisations, they get paid regardless, and the ones who don't have a job if they don't make a profit. It is a very hard job out there, to make a profit. There is a lot of competition and the general public are very fickle. They can choose to be, its their money and they can spend it where they choose. A lot of people enjoy music, myself included. If the government stop people having music then the Urb will just become a slum area with empty property and businesses everywhere. If they did not intend for people have bars then why did they allow all of them to be built? Apparently a certain Bar on the Urb now has a licence to open until 5 a.m. why decent people need to be out drinking until this time of the morning beats me? These are the people who wake me up when they walk home, a lot of them acting stupid.

Im not surprised they are acting stupid if they are drinking til 5 am!! We had youths urinating through our gate and chucking empty beer cans both this year and last year after the so called Rock Fiesta.. Now that's noise that people around the market place can complain about - not the bars, because the decibels were right up towards 12. But that's OK you see because its the council that runs that!! Why they cant take it down Mercadona way beats me.

Decibels right up towards 12. Noise that people around the market place can complain about? Alison, you must have a fantastic hearing! Rustling leaves 10 dB. Whisper 20dB. Normal conversation 60 dB.

How clever are you Reindeer,You spotted Alison's error, so did I and I gather as did lots of people who read her comment, but instead of correcting it in your own brain, to a probable correct number, you just had to let people see just how clever you must be to notice it. I just put a Zero on the number 12, and hey presto got a number 120 which is roughtly the level for heavy metal rock. Not rocket science.

Isn't it fantastic! A zero more or less can make a big difference. I would never have thought about that! Thank you Alan for informing me.

12 at night....of course! reindeer do you spend all day proofreading, looking for something to be sarcastic about?
I guess you must be some kind of a technical guru seeing as you seem to know so much about everything? There should have been a comma after "right up"..... and maybe an "around" before 12 to make it easier to understand...sorry. My English was incorrect.

Thank you alison for your excellent explanation. Now I understand what you meant. Of course loud music coming from any place, bars or fiestas, could be bad. You should never be forced to listen to music you don´t like.
But Alan, this clarifying information from alison made your attack on me this time a bit ridiculous.

You said, he said, you did, he did, she said, you said, lets play nicely or FIGHT

Yep you are correct Reindeer,i misunderstood Alisons wording, and feel only fair that I should apologize profoundly to you for having a pop at you. But if you could curb your annoying habit of correcting peoples small mistakes, with your silly asides, I wouldn't have to write comments about you doing it, and better still I wouldn't have to apologize on the few occasions that I am wrong. At least I do admit to being wrong occasionally. The strange thing is that Heavy Metal rock Music is normally at 115 -120 Decibels

You may be interested to know that Jeff is totally behind the petition that has been set up, and we also have the backing of the Mayor of San Fulgencio, who can also see the advantages to all business and residents alike that this first step towards sanity would bring. http://peticionpublica.es/pview.aspx?pi=ES74536

Glad to hear it.

And so they should as they were voted in to represent the people of the area